The Dissertation Reality Check with Drs. Alison Pattison and Lori Wieters

What does it really take to finish a dissertation from a Dissertation Chair's perspective?

In this episode of Dissertating: In the Trenches and Behind the Scenes, host TiffianyAnn Lundine sits down with Dr. Alison Pattison and Dr. Lori Wieters, co-authors of the book, From Research to Reality, for an honest and grounding conversation about the realities doctoral learners face.

Together, they unpack burnout, guilt around rest, sustainable progress, and the often-misunderstood dynamics of working with a dissertation committee. Drawing from their own doctoral journeys and years of supporting doctoral learners, Dr. Pattison and Dr. Wieters share practical guidance, mindset shifts, and real stories that remind listeners they are not alone or behind.

This episode is a reality check every doctoral learner needs: compassionate, practical, and rooted in what actually helps people finish.

Book: From Research to Reality

Available through Amazon: https://a.co/d/75IK34M and Barnes and Noble

Research to Reality Community: A collaborative group of doctoral learners, graduates, and faculty who have one common goal -- to finish!

https://the-research-to-reality-community.mn.co/share/lYIBHexW1u-i3Wzs?utm_source=manual

Transcript

TiffianyAnn(00:03)

Welcome back to Dissertating in the Trenches and Behind the Scenes. This is the podcast where we talk honestly about what it really takes to finish a doctorate. I am your host, Tiffany Anne Lundeen, and today I am joined by Dr. Allison Pattison and Dr. Lori Wieters, co-authors of a newly released book, From Research to Reality. Together they bring deep experiences at scholars, mentors, and dissertation chairs. And in my experience, a very refreshingly human perspective on the doctoral journey. In this episode, we're gonna talk about burnout, sustainable progress, committee relationships, and what they've learned along the way. If you're in the middle of the process or supporting someone who is, I think you may find this conversation very helpful. So welcome you two. I appreciate you meeting with me today. Could you please give us a brief introduction and we'll start with Dr. Pattison. What do you do? Where do you play at? Tell us all about yourself.

Dr. Alison Pattison (01:06)

Thank you. Thank you so much for having us on your podcast. It's really exciting. ⁓ So I wear a lot of different hats in my professional life. I own an education company and we provide training for direct support professionals who are supporting an individual diagnosed with an intellectual or developmental disability. I also have a podcast associated with that called beyond the classroom. And then I am a, ⁓ chair, a senior, I guess my title is senior doctoral chair, but I call myself the project manager. So I am the one who is walking alongside the student and getting them what they need. ⁓ communicating with the other members of the committee. And I also am a professor in a doctoral program and in a couple different university master's programs.

TiffianyAnn(02:18)

Well, thank you for being here.

Dr. Alison Pattison (02:20)

Thank you.

TiffianyAnn(02:23)

Who are you? Tell us all about you.

Dr. Lori Wieters(02:26)

Well, thank you so much, Dr. Lundine. We're excited to be here with you today. As I think about who am I, I, as Dr. Pattison does, we fill a lot of different buckets. My professional life, I own businesses. I'm a management consultant and behavior expert in the business. And I always say I'm the business girl by day and the professor by night. I have been working in higher education since about 2000. So it's been a long, long time, but I've done everything from undergrad to masters. And then I found my place in the doctoral world. I've been a doctoral chair since 2011 and residency instructors since 2010. Right now I am chairing. I've been on approximately 50 committees where we've graduated learners and just excited to be able to bring our expertise to the world. In fact, I also have a dissertation community of over 1800 striving learners. Dr. Pattison and I are combining that into a new community this year.

TiffianyAnn(03:47)

Ooh, that's exciting. Obviously, your credentials take you well into the public eye. And I appreciate you guys being here to share just your experiences and your expertise for a few minutes. So thank you. My first question today, I want you to kind of sit back and remember for just a second what it was like going through your own journey. Just before we all started to gather, Dr. Wieters said, sometimes it's still in my bones. have some, we're going to call it dissertation trauma for the moment that surfaces sometimes. So you each hit walls at different stages in your dissertation, I'm sure. How did those struggles shape the structure of the book and the advice that you decided to give with? Within that book.

Dr. Lori Wieters(04:44)

So I got my dissertation was completed in 2007. So it has been a long time, but it's stuck in my brain forever. I was married with kids at home, teenagers at home, three of them. And I was working 60 to 70 hours a week and also tackling my doctoral dissertation work. And trauma points, the barriers were the classes were easy. I buzzed through the classes. I was taking two at a time, getting right through those. I mean, I remember having a stack of books that was like 10 inches tall one time trying to figure out how to get them all read before the quarter was over. And I got to the point where I got into my dissertation writing and things went a little haywire. I was at a university that had comps and my first set of comps I failed and I rarely fail at anything. And I was, was mad because I didn't feel like they gave me enough background in how to do them or even an exemplar. And at the time the committee, each one of the committee members picked a question surrounding my study and I picked questions. So I had to write four. 15 page papers to pass my comps. And if you fail twice, you're out of the program. So the second set, they sent me an exemplar. I passed, so I would say that was my first barrier. And then as I came upon my fifth year in the program, and it's a four year program, as I came up upon my fifth year, I thought I'm never gonna finish, just never, because in fact, I thought it was a cult to even finish. And so I called my chair and I said, quit. And she says, you're not quitting. You're just around the corner. And that was in November. And she says, put your big girl panties on. We're going for a ride. And that was the best advice I'd ever gotten in my dissertation process. as ⁓ she said, you owe me this, this, and this the next week. You owe me this, this, and this the next week. And then after that, We're going to go here and there. And she gave me a plan and I'm a planning person and I finished in May. So I almost quit the November before I finished in May. So that's my big barriers. And then the best advice is don't quit before you finish.

TiffianyAnn(07:23)

Mm hmm. I have questions come back to you on that one. I but I want to hear from Dr. Pattison before I come back because I feel like there may be some overlap just with the head nods. There is a lot of overlap.

Dr. Alison Pattison (07:41)

So very similar story. My story began, so I'll get a little personal in that I started my doctorate about a month after I separated from my now ex-husband. And so there was a lot of... There was a lot going on in my world. In fact, everyone in my world said, have you lost your mind? Why would you start a program in the midst of all of this stress and horrible emotional stress? And I will say that I joined a ground cohort.

And I will say that it was the best thing that I did. It gave me an instant community and I looked forward to every Thursday night going to class. And we became, I'm still close with the majority of those people that were in my cohort. We just became a major support system for each other. you know,

Like Dr. Lori, I had little kids. Well, my kids were, I know yours were a little bit older during the time, but my kids were little. Navigating, divorce, working full-time plus because I had a full-time job and then I was teaching. I've been teaching at the university level since 2003. So I've always had multiple jobs, but I was working multiple jobs now to make ends meet because as a single mom,

⁓ I, so once I think where I hit several walls was after the cohort was done because now, you know, we're on our own and we all were kind of working at different paces and we didn't have that. We had it, but we weren't getting together regularly. So.

We didn't have the Thursday night class. We were all doing our own thing, working jobs and trying to write when we could. ⁓ I have a very similar story as to quitting because I ran into ⁓ some pretty major barriers with methodology and disagreements about how I should move forward amongst the committee. ⁓

It took me down for a little while and I remember calling my chair and saying the same thing. Like, can't do this anymore, I don't know. I was just beyond frustrated and he said the same thing to me. No, you're not quitting. I understand your feelings. I want you to take the weekend and I want you to not think about.

this, I want you to spend time with your family. And then on Monday, you're coming back at it and you're gonna finish with my support. I didn't know at the time, obviously, how close I was. Although I think he did. When you're in the midst of it, that is the PTSD, I call it. I do still have nightmares that I'm not done, literally, like dreams. ⁓ but I, I didn't know how close I was because it's just this constant process where you're, know, but I was, I was two months, I was two months away from finishing from defending. So yeah, I think my best advice is similar to Dr. Lori's in that you, you don't always.

TiffianyAnn(11:35)

Well.

Dr. Alison Pattison (11:49)

see how close you are. And ⁓ I think about how my life would be different if I had given up. And it would be completely different. I've used my doctorate. It's taken me a lot of different routes that I wouldn't have otherwise gone. So I'm thankful that I didn't quit. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy to to go there though, for sure. So maybe that will encourage someone who is, you know, I often tell my my students that I chair. ⁓ What happens if you don't do this? Yeah.

TiffianyAnn(12:38)

That's a great question. That's a great question. So one thing that keeps coming up for me is just this nagging question, because both of you guys talk about this turning point where the support looked different. I'm curious about this level of support though, and the shift that happens within us. Like both of you reached out to your chair and you said, I'm not ready to quit. And I think that that's a common thing that we all feel like this is too hard. The easy thing is to quit. It seems like in both of your situations, there was a shift. And I don't know if the shift was the level of support increased or your realization as a learner at that moment was the shift that this, have the support. I didn't realize the support was really there as it was. Can you talk to me a little bit more about what that shift may have been?

Dr. Lori Wieters(13:44)

I think for me it was the chaos that seemed to ensue before I finally said enough's enough. Every review, every this, every that, it was not clear where I was going. And I love a good project plan or a good plan forward. And the chaos that was in the midst of it, I didn't know how to navigate. And until I'd finally given up all hope of trying to figure it out and I called and said, it's done. I don't, I'm not sure my chair had the crystal ball to see all the chaos I was in prior to the phone call. And so once I laid the foundation, she goes, no, no, no, no, no. Here, get me this in two weeks and the next two weeks do this. And then we're going to go this direction and then you're going to defend. And someday I'll talk about that because that was a beautiful moment. But that was when I felt like I finally had a way forward and I could not believe it was only six months away.

TiffianyAnn(14:49)

Wow. do you agree with that Dr. Pattison or was there anything else you wanted to add to that?

Dr. Alison Pattison (14:55)

No, I do. Mine was very similar. It was like, I've reached my point. I can't do this. And then I don't know if it was me really hearing it. I know I was receiving support up to that point, but I think it was more of like a game plan. You know, like, okay, this is what we're going to do to get done. And then it just kind of fell into place after that.

TiffianyAnn(15:24)

like a moment of surrender for both of you. And I know the tension, right? And I'm sure that most of the listeners have experienced that tension. And so if I could just add, my takeaway from that question or your feedback on that was where are you going to let go of what you've been guarding for a long time, right? And so, and I don't know what that translates for all of our listeners, but Maybe that's another podcast in of itself, but I found it very interesting that that would seem to be a commonality between the two of you. and in speaking even in surrender, I feel like that leans a little bit into how we take care of ourselves, right? Because surrendering is, in my opinion, when you can release the tension, that's what surrender is for me, is releasing everything that I've been trying to control for so long. But that also comes back to self-care and the wellbeing. Doctoral learners often internalize like guilt for resting or pulling back. How can they give themselves permission to pursue sustainable progress instead of burnout?

Dr. Alison Pattison (16:41)

So for me, it was a combination of things. I knew that I had to celebrate those small milestones that ⁓ I had to give myself permission to just bask in that. And I did. I would reward myself with a little sweet treat or, ⁓ you know, walking, just even walking with a good friend of mine to celebrate was, you know, celebrating with family or friends that maybe didn't necessarily know exactly what I was going through, but had watched me struggling. Yeah, I think for me, that was a piece of my taking care of myself. I did schedule in times, you know, for those things that I needed to do, like taking a walk, and I would schedule it in my day because you can get to the point where all you're doing is working, especially when you work full-time plus, and then the only time that you have to work on your dissertation is those evening and weekend times. It can be very overwhelming. And if you don't take that break, you're just gonna burn out. I mean, we know that. I think I've gotten better at it since I think that was kind of the beginning of me learning that I needed to take care of myself. Otherwise everything else kind of falls apart.

TiffianyAnn(18:30)

Dr. Wieters

Dr. Lori Wieters(18:33)

I didn't take care of myself. I plowed right through everything. And I will tell you, I woke up at 310 pounds at the end of my dissertation process. And I was working all week long, 60 to 70 hours a week, Saturday and Sunday, had a good support system at home. My husband took the kids and did stuff with them so I could have a quiet house and Sunday was spent from 12 to 12 in my office, coming up for food or water and then going back down. And I was physically unhealthy. And so I had to look at myself and go, okay, we're done with that. Now you can take care of yourself. And that's what I did. That's why Dr. Pattison and I devoted the whole first part of the book. You'll notice it might start a little interesting. doesn't start with choosing your topic. starts with take cake, taking care of yourself and, organizing yourself and making plans to take care of yourself throughout the process.

TiffianyAnn(19:44)

So ⁓ since you had that experience of the alternate part of the view that we're trying to persuade people to do right in their dissertation process as a chair, are there telltale signs that you see when a learner is not taking care of themselves?

Dr. Lori Wieters(20:08)

I've chaired a lot of students over the years and I've had a lot of crying on the phone. I mean, on the Zoom calls and on the phone, I guess. I've had a lot of quitting along the way and been able to empathize with that. So I'm kind of glad that's part of my doctoral story. I see them not being able to concentrate when I'm trying to talk to them and help them. So we always make sure we record our calls so they can go back to it. There's just, think, a lot of signs for folks who come in with maybe they're sick a lot. I find that. And so that's why it's important for us, I think, to cover that in the book.

TiffianyAnn(20:54)

I appreciate you guys bringing that to the forefront and in the forefront in actuality, that's how you begin your book. That's the human piece that I love the way you guys put that in the book first. Did you want to add anything, Dr. Pattison?

Dr. Alison Pattison (21:08)

Yeah, I so I do have the conversation when I first get a student. I have that conversation with them about mental health and that this can really take its toll on you. And we kind of almost talk through what we wrote in the book. And I actually do a mental health check in with my students every time I meet with them. because I think it is that important and they do tell me. And many of my learners have been, not just recently, but over the years have gone through really traumatic events during the writing of their dissertation. Leave the dissertation out of it. Their house burns down. They've got a diagnosis. Their husband is diagnosed. you know, ⁓ a car accident that almost takes their eyes. I mean, there have been, I just look at so many of my learners in just awe of really what they are doing in the midst of everyday life. So the mental health piece is a very ⁓ open conversation that we have ⁓ because I think more than anything, ⁓ I'm not just there to, you know, yeah, I'm there to support them with their academic goals, but I'm also there to listen to what they need from me to be an encouragement, ⁓ you know, to be their biggest cheerleader. How can I do that? ⁓ I want them to know that that is my role as well, so.

Dr. Lori Wieters(23:00)

I think we work a lot alike there, Dr. Pattison, because the first 10, 15 minutes of my conversations are, are you? That's where we started. Because as a human in such ⁓ a hard process, it's hard to hear when you're not ready or when you're in the midst. And so there's times when 30 minutes goes on and then we get to work. But I think that's what makes us carrying chairs that are successful in the work that we do.

Dr. Alison Pattison (23:31)

And the relationship building. Yeah, was just gonna say the relationship building is critical. It really I mean, in everything. But yeah, it's really important.

Dr. Lori Wieters(23:41)

And

TiffianyAnn(23:42)

think that that's a disconnect because a lot of learners that I've spoken to, they're like, well, my chair is not my friend. And they don't say that in a judgment way, like towards their chair, but they're just trying to isolate different roles, right? I found it important to have a relationship or build some kind of relationship with my chair.

in order to establish that trust. My chair had a bunny and I would let her tell me all about her bunny, not because I care about bunnies, but because I get to know her in that way And it built that level of trust for me so that I, as a learner, can extend that trust to her in something that was super important to me. So I love the fact that you guys do that. What do you think? are the biggest mistakes that learners make when interacting with their chair or even in their methodologist, because you probably both have had some level of interaction in that way as well.

Dr. Lori Wieters(24:45)

I think it's not them understanding this is the first time they've ever done anything like this. It's not like anything you've done before. in your, not probably in your education. If you're coming out of a master's degree, it's like a whole nother level. Even in your professional life, like I write, you write proposals and things like that in professional life.

And this is just a whole nother level of things. so trusting the process on what we see, like trusting your chair's vision on what we see as your next step or what we see as your next goal is really important for, and it comes back to building that trusting relationship when your chair says, you're going to have to go here or there. Your methodologist says this, and guess what? You're going to get some AQR feedback and we're going to be writing again.

So trusting that process, that iterative process that we all have to go through because you've never done this before. And then giving themselves grace in the process. That's huge.

TiffianyAnn(25:50)

Mmm.

Dr. Alison Pattison (25:51)

That is huge. Yeah, I think too with with feedback. It can be. It can be hard, you know, and it's I think I'll tell my students, OK, I know it stings right this second. I get it. I totally have been in your shoes, but just. let it marinate for a couple days You your methodologist is trying to help you. And even though it feels painful right this second, I think you're gonna see, you know, we all have your best interest at heart. And although that may not be what you thought they were gonna say, I think you'll see that it that that's what you need to do. And just getting to that point, I think can be, you sometimes, you know, like Dr. Lori said, it's like nothing they've ever done before. No one really prepares you for that. You know, this is a ginormous undertaking you may have all the, answers in your business life, but you're learning new things now. And you have to be open. You have to be humble. You know, you have to not think that you know at all because you, you don't, you're learning. This is the process. This is part of the journey. So when students resist, that can be, you know, I hear them out. I want to hear them out, but

TiffianyAnn(27:28)

Thanks

Dr. Alison Pattison (27:35)

but they also need to hear out the committee and they need to really take that in and process.

TiffianyAnn(27:46)

Okay, I hear you guys. I hear you and I certainly agree. I mean we have chairs for a reason. You guys have experience and I as a learner, I rely on that. But this is a parallel thought as a learner, like trust somebody. I don't know what I'm doing, right? Yeah. I don't know what I'm doing, but I have to advocate for myself. So yeah, how as a learner, when I don't know what I'm doing, And I get feedback that I'm like, I'm I'm not, something's not right. Something's not right. How do I advocate for myself in a positive way of the relationship? Right. Because that's the other piece of this is I, I mean, I, I spoke with a learner yesterday and they're like, I'm saying too much. I'm saying too much. Or I'm, know, I'm like, just speak up, say what it is, but

Dr. Alison Pattison (28:40)

Yes, safe place for my learners. And so I want them to know that they can tell they can share with me openly. But when we come together as a committee, and that's something that I always recommend is, hey, let's let's get together and talk about these questions that you have with the person who gave you this feedback. So I let them, you know, I mean, obviously, they're going to advocate for themselves with the committee, but to talk through it with me and say, this is where I'm not sure. ⁓ And maybe I can then, it helps me kind of formulate the discussion that we should have with the whole committee.

TiffianyAnn(29:24)

Okay, okay, Dr. Wieters

Dr. Lori Wieters(29:26)

I would absolutely agree with that. had a learner conversation yesterday. I got a brand new student and I treat my students like an intake, like a diagnostic intake. And so I've created this form and she filled it out and in an hour and 15 minutes, she caught more from me than her past chair for a year. And so I would just tell students, if it feels off, call your university. talk if you're if you're not getting through with your chair, client for university and just say, this normal? Just ask this normal. would always tell her I told her I said I'm really upset about this. And I said, I'm not going to tell you not to advocate for yourself. I'm just going to say let's do it productively. And let's format it in this way with a thank you very much for my new chair. The past year did not I did not get the same whatever and whatever you want to say and then make sure you're thanking the university for their whatever. And she wrote a beautiful letter to the dean and I, you know, it's going to be good for her to advocate for herself. But if something feels off, talk to somebody, find another trusted chair, call Dr. Pattison and I. Find our information all over the internet, so you might as find us and just ask, is this normal? And if we say, maybe not, but let's go, you might want to advocate for yourself, but do it productively and do it kindly and give folks grace in the process.

TiffianyAnn(31:04)

I think I want to highlight something that just came to mind. Advocacy doesn't necessarily for yourself or agency doesn't necessarily mean that you are correct. It just means something's burning in you and that you need to ask. What? And you guys touched on this a little bit, but can you give us an example of healthy communication rhythm with your chair? What does that look like?

Dr. Alison Pattison (31:20)

Absolutely.

Dr. Lori Wieters(31:34)

I think it looks like a starting point. Like in the very beginning, you have to set the expectation. ⁓ and a lot of times I create almost like you would in a business, a little communication plan that says how often you meet, what you'll meet about, who does what on the meeting. You know, I might do the corrections on your document in bubble comments the first couple of times we meet, but I set the expectation from here on out. You're gonna pull your document up, we're gonna record it you're gonna make your own changes. And so I think having a really clear upfront plan and the openness to have conversation, we're always gonna start with, how are you? We're not gonna jump right into what the corrections were. And I do like to grade their things in person. So not in person person, but on Zoom. So we pull up their document. I show them where they're at. give them an example of what it should look like. So I know I am much more hands-on and traditional chairing might look like that's wrong. Go figure it out and do it again. But that's not me.

TiffianyAnn(32:45)

⁓ What about you, Dr. Pattison?

Dr. Alison Pattison (32:48)

I am very similar ⁓ to Dr. Reader's in that way. I am very much, ⁓ again, the expectations setting at the beginning and then we have our schedule of when we're going to meet. it's like already for when someone starts their class, we already have it on the calendar. Like these are the dates. On this date, I need you to have this and I want you to show it to me. And I do the same thing. We hop on Zoom. I do look at their work first and I make my notes and then we hop on and I send it to them so that they can formulate any questions. But then we talk through like, on this page, this is why I said this. And I think you're, I think you know what you're trying to say, it's just not coming out that way, you know? And so we talk through those pieces a lot of time, they're easy tweaks and it's just more of like, you know, I know they've probably read it 16,000 times, you know, as I have, but it's looking at it from a different perspective. Like, I know you know what you're trying to say here, but it doesn't come across, right? So just sometimes easy things like that, sometimes not so easy, but. ⁓ yeah, I think that having that set time that for me, it also helps me to know, ⁓ you know, I am, I am talking with them. It's not, it's not just the feedback like, ⁓ look at your feedback that I sent you in the platform. It's like, okay, I know I'm going to talk to them every four weeks or whatever it's set at so that I can. Yeah. Check in. how are things going, you know, and then talk about the feedback so that they can move forward.

TiffianyAnn(34:47)

So like I hear you expectations upfront, super important. I tell people this all the time. Meet with your chair right away. Set that expectation, not just for them, for them to accept that set those expectations, but for you as well. Yeah. Here's where I think communication, sometimes we can get a little petty. I mean, but, it's important. Like I know that I had two chairs and the first chair, I adore her, but I kept saying, can we schedule our, our next meeting? Can we have that on the calendar? And, and I kept asking and in her flexibility in her mind, she's like, yeah, sure. Just reach out to me that she was making herself available to me in my mind. I'm like, I need structure. need to know it's coming, but I didn't communicate that well. So.

When I was with a new chair, I said, okay, this was a real problem for me, a real problem internally for me, all petty as it was, it made a difference for me. And so I said, I'm going to do this again. I'm going to ask for this again. But what I did was I took a step back and said, what did I not ask for? What was it that I was unclear about? And so when I asked this new chair, I said, I need to know what's coming. Can we set up meeting that that really then focused in my request. And although my first chair was totally trying to make herself available. That was not helpful to me. But it's again, it goes back to the communication and

Dr. Alison Pattison (36:18)

the accountability.

Dr. Lori Wieters(36:36)

And it's such your effort, Dr. Lundin, it's such your effort. I know I'm going to meet with her on Saturday, blah, blah, blah. And I haven't really done much on my work and last couple weeks because of work or busyness. Now I need to get started because I've got a show, you know, and, most learners don't understand that they, should be working on this 10 to 20 hours a week. And if they're not, guess what?

Dr. Alison Pattison (36:58)

Yeah.

Dr. Lori Wieters(37:01)

If you're going to with your chair, you need to work really hard that week to make up some of those hours and get that, get at least some progress done because it's not good for the, to have an hour with your chair and not have anything done. And I, when that happens, I'm like, okay, this meeting is going to be like 15 minutes so you can get some work done. Yeah.

TiffianyAnn(37:25)

Yeah, you guys had some vast experiences. Do either of you feel comfortable sharing a story about somebody, a learner that you worked with that surprised you?

Dr. Lori Wieters(37:39)

Hmm.

I've had a couple learners who finished before the timeframe and one learner had a young mom of one, well she actually had two babies in the dissertation process. And she defended the week after. The second baby was born. What? Yeah. Her final defense the second week, but these are, you know, when you think of ⁓ a bell curve, only 15 % of the students or 13 to 15 % will ever finish in the first three years and a couple of months. The others have, as Dr. Allison talked about things that happen in the middle that delay you. And it doesn't matter how long it takes you. The fact is you got it done. So when you can finish in that kind of timeframe with babies and all the things, I think that just shows grit, tenacity, focus. It's a small part of your life. So if you can focus for three and a half years and get things done, then you can, but not everybody can do that. So you can't compare yourself from a timing perspective. But yeah, I have three or four of those stories where people had to... one or two babies in the meds had people die, had things happen. I had a learner who was in chapter four and five and his house burned down.

Dr. Alison Pattison (39:17)

⁓ same. I was gonna say that. Yeah.

Dr. Lori Wieters(39:20)

⁓ house burnt down. luckily he was able, ⁓ we loaded everything up to the cloud. And so he just had to recreate some things and finish out his data collection and finish.

TiffianyAnn(39:32)

Wow. Wow. Yeah, that's devastating. If you don't have a backup, listen, everybody, if you don't have a backup, make a backup. Wow. What about you, Dr. Pattison?

Dr. Alison Pattison (39:42)

Do that now.

Dr. Lori Wieters(39:43)

Yeah

Dr. Alison Pattison (39:48)

Yeah,

I've, I'm just seeing the faces of my learners and some of the things that they have gone through in the time that I've known them. And honestly, I, it makes me get emotional because I, I don't know that I would, I don't know that I could have done it. Like I am in awe of them. I mean, some of the, ⁓ I mean, yeah, some of your, your, one of my students during the California fires, her house burned down.

and her church burned down and her school where she worked burned down. And she was saying she didn't, she did lose some things, but ⁓ she had most of it. ⁓ But then like I would be meeting with her and she'd be in her hotel room, you know, and she was like, not even talking about, you know, I check in, how are you doing?

TiffianyAnn(40:21)

Wow. Wow.

Dr. Alison Pattison (40:44)

Like, yeah, she would say a few things, but she's just like focused, you know, that grit. ⁓ I just, that's probably one of the most rewarding pieces for me is like, I'm just, I'm just this small piece of their story, but I'm so honored that I got to be a part of it because they truly inspire me, truly.

TiffianyAnn(41:09)

Yeah. Yeah. I think that every learner that I talk to every time I'm inspired by something, it could be I decided after sitting on my couch for five hours that that was no longer productive. I needed to go do something. I'm just inspired by how we pick ourselves up. So I want to shift back to your book for a second specifically.

And maybe each of you have a different chapter that you think is of the highest priority. So feel free to contradict each other if you will. ⁓ But what's one chapter in your book that you think every doctoral learner should read at least twice?

Dr. Alison Pattison (41:57)

I think there are several. I, for me, I think it depends on where you're at when you get our book. So, but for me, I think one of the things that I wasn't prepared for as a, as a learner myself, I, I, first of all, I would have loved to have our book because

We broke it down into really easy to understand, you know, real. I hope that that is how people feel is that it's real, that it's practical. But one of the things I wasn't prepared for at all was after the dissertation. ⁓ and even that, that like black hole time between when you defend and then when you're, you know, submitting to form and formatting. we talk about it, like we say, go ahead and buy the doctor mug, but you're not really a doctor yet until you've gone through your university process of being done. Right. But it's this like, all of a sudden. What do I do? You know, there's, there's some. And then just the emotional side of it.

For me, I really did go through a depression ⁓ after I was like, okay, what now? I've spent the last five years working on this. And I think some of the emotions that students don't expect, I think for me that I like that chapter. I like that chapter that we wrote. But I think it does depend on where you're at. think different times in the process, you'll maybe benefit from some of the different chapters at different times.

Dr. Lori Wieters(43:53)

Yeah, I think for me, besides the self care, because now you know, I didn't take care of myself through the process. Besides self care and all the things we wrote, and we thought that that was great to start with. ⁓ I think choosing your topic, if we have to go to a practical area, most students want to pick something that they observe in society or around them or something that they want to study. And then they try to tackle the whole thing, like the whole issue that's been there for 400 years and they wanna come in and they wanna make their mark. A dissertation is simply a demonstration that you can do scholarly work and that you can enter into the scholarly community. And in these quicker programs that are three years, three and a half years, four years, there's no time to solve world peace. And so we talk about that a lot in the book and finding a place where you could build out a postage stamp of what you want to do. Now that's done through literature reviewing and seeing what's out there, what's new. Maybe your subject you want to tackle is kind of old and nobody has it. Maybe it's already moved offshore to a different country and maybe it's no longer an issue here. But it's an issue for you at school or it's an issue for you at work. So I think what we do really well, even outside of the book, but in the book, we try and describe the idea of creating a postage stamp that gives you a launch pad for going and solving in your world peace, wherever your world peace is, whether you want to start a business. And a lot of times if I'm coaching the student, it's all about starting with the end in mind. What do you want to be known for? If you want to be known for tackling, we have a good friend of hers who tackles gamification in schools and teachers usage of it. That's what she wants to do in life. So that was her study, is a small study in how teachers use gamification. She's writing a book, creating a gamification game, and doing some things that in her life are life changers, starting a business and doing those things. So I like starting with the end in mind, helping them create a postage stamp of their, whatever they want to be known for. And those are, and that's through choosing your topic. If you get that wrong, You spend years trying to figure out how to get that right.

I think it feels like me getting a new student that was with a previous chair that hasn't made any progress. That's what that feels like. And you get them. And I have a little PowerPoint. I call it my chair onboarding PowerPoint. And I give it to the students and the students fill it out and I can see within seconds where they're off. And so it's easy for me to help them get on track, but they say you're changing my topic. We're not changing anything. Your chapter two looks the same. We are pivoting it and we're strengthening your questions and doing the work. It looks like for me.

Dr. Alison Pattison (46:57)

narrowing

TiffianyAnn(46:59)

Do you sense an energy level change when you're talking to them, Dr. Wieters? And then like suddenly they say something that is like, ⁓ that's what they're interested in. Is that what you're listening for?

Dr. Lori Wieters(47:12)

Yeah, and light bulbs go off for them when I say I'm coaching one student is tackling law enforcement officers and how they describe their PTSD, their mental health in their profession. And I said, any law enforcement officer? Well, tell me what that looks like. What's the literature say? And we realized when we looked at the literature that most of the new officers were leaving in years one to five due to overwhelm, burnout, lack of wellness, whatever it is. I said, what if we, sometimes if we narrow it down to what if you put law enforcement officers who have been in service for one to five years, comma, describe their mental health in the first five years of whatever. And light bulbs went off for him. And now actually more literature showed up and more information showed up. his studies are going to be much more meaningful than just doing a chicken soup study. I call it chicken soup or vegetable soup where you throw everything in a pot and everything tastes the same.

TiffianyAnn(48:22)

Interesting, Dr. Pattison, you?

What are the common causes why somebody might be choosing a topic that's off?

Dr. Alison Pattison (48:37)

I would say no one has really talked to them about it. So maybe they, their, their previous chair or they've gone, they've gotten through the coursework and no one's really said to them or questioned them on that and said, tell me more. ⁓ I, I call it, ⁓ so Dr. Wieters calls it chicken soup. I call it cheesecake factory.

We don't wanna be the Cheesecake Factory. We gotta ⁓ dive a little deeper here at narrow. So we don't wanna be known for burritos and sushi and pasta, right? But I think it takes that discussion. yeah, mean, like Dr. Wieters said, as chairs, we can see pretty quickly a new, you know, if we get a new student where they're just not, they're, they're not making progress because they've got that, that problem there. So I think, yeah, the light bulb goes off and it's like, from what I've seen, it's like, ⁓ thank you. You know, this is a relief. This is what I've been, you know, and then they can just move forward. Yeah.

TiffianyAnn(49:58)

⁓ I'm going to shift us a little bit. I'm going to ask you guys to reflect. What did you learn about yourselves while writing this book? Dr. Wieners?

Dr. Lori Wieters(50:12)

learned I have a lot to say. have a lot of opinions and then collaborating with Dr. Pattison. We were able to play off each other and come to common ground around our experiences and everything. That was such a beautiful thing for I think I'm hoping for both of us. And then ⁓ we I procrastinated in it. you know, I think we both had some procrastination and finishing and things like that and We finally put a stake in the sand and she and I went for a weekend away together. Never spent an evening together or anything, but we got a hotel and we went and we spent a weekend together and we just wrote. And it was a turning point in us finishing.

Dr. Alison Pattison (50:59)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we locked ourselves in the at the Marriott in Tucson and it was it was great. I mean, it was definitely a turning point. I can look back and say that. But yeah, I mean, I think we both yeah, we played off of each other. We both have different strengths. I think we yeah, we both faced a little bit of the procrastination.

TiffianyAnn(51:02)

Thank you.

Dr. Alison Pattison (51:27)

when one was kind of straggling, one could say, hey, we got to get this done. We did set some deadlines and that again, like the expectations that was helpful too. I think for me, I'm trying to think what I learned about myself. Yeah, I learned, so kind of the whole book idea came to me when I was putting together all of these different resources that I had, like for a student, I wanted them to be all in one place. And that was kind of the whole idea behind it is like, there is a book here, let's put it in one place. And so I think for me, it was just like, we can do this, like we absolutely can do this, and we did. So it was a confidence builder, but also I think at the end of the day,

both Dr. Wieters and I have the same heart for students and that's what it's about. It's like if we can just help even one student by them seeing or seeing something different, doing something different that's gonna get them to the finish line, that's why we did it.

TiffianyAnn(52:46)

I love that. I know that at the beginning of our session today, you, Dr. Wieters had referred to a community that you have and that the two of you are working on a community. sounded like it's similar or maybe is the same, but is that the type of community somebody might come into to say, hey, can we workshop through this topic idea that I have? And can you tell us a little bit about where do we find that type of community?

Dr. Lori Wieters(53:21)

Okay, well, I created with a long time ago, long, long, 2018, we were in a Panera Bread together, a bunch of us, I was one of the professors and we had people come in and we would help them with their studies. And then we converted that into a larger space where people would come one Saturday a month. We called it the collaborative. And then, As COVID happened, we transitioned online and now we have a Facebook page called the Dissertation E-Collaborative. And that's where folks can come and post their questions and be in community so you're not lonely. We know that that's a problem and so community is a big deal. There's currently about 1800 people on that platform from 30 countries and about 30 universities. So we're real excited about that. But with this book, coming out, Dr. Pattison and I are actually, Facebook's kind of limiting in how many people you can reach and we know our reach isn't to the 500 or to the 1800. So we're moving that over to a new platform. It's built on a church platform called Mighty Networks. And we're gonna call it Research to Reality Community. And we're excited about that. That's happening real lifetime right now. And so we're gonna be... inviting everyone from the Facebook page over to the new forum where we have many more capabilities than we have right now on Facebook.

TiffianyAnn(54:51)

So if I heard you correctly, if I am a learner listening to this right now, and this is something I want to be connected to, it's probably the first step is to go to Facebook dissertation ecolab or ecollaborative. I think it says sponsored by We2Collabs. Yeah, find that and then join the community.

Dr. Lori Wieters(55:12)

That's my business.

TiffianyAnn(55:18)

Get involved in the community and then when this evolving community begins to happen, then you'll be invited into that. Is that correct?

Dr. Lori Wieters(55:27)

Yeah, and we're going to support both platforms for about six months.

TiffianyAnn(55:31)

Okay, okay, great. Thank you so very much. ⁓ Do either of you, okay. ⁓ Dr. Pattison and Dr. Wieters, I thank you so very much for taking the time and sharing your hearts with us today. To our listeners, I hope the conversation today reminded you that progress doesn't have to be perfect. Rest is part of the work and you are not alone. If you find this to be helpful, I will put the links that would be helpful as well in the show notes. Until then, keep going, keep trusting, and keep the process going. Keep dissertation.

Book: From Research to Reality

Available through Amazon: https://a.co/d/75IK34M and Barnes and Noble

Research to Reality Community: A collaborative group of doctoral learners, graduates, and faculty who have one common goal -- to finish!

https://the-research-to-reality-community.mn.co/share/lYIBHexW1u-i3Wzs?utm_source=manual