Someone Who Gets It

Doctoral work is often described as isolating, overwhelming, and deeply personal. But what happens when someone truly understands the journey alongside you?

In this episode of Dissertating: In the Trenches and Behind the Scenes, Drs. Noreen Hobayan and Carolyn Peters share how an unexpected partnership during the dissertation phase became a lifeline through discouragement, revisions, leadership changes, self-doubt, and exhaustion. What began as simple Zoom study sessions evolved into a powerful source of accountability, friendship, emotional support, and persistence.

Together, they reflect on what it means to keep showing up for yourself, and for someone else, during one of the most demanding academic journeys a person can experience.

This conversation is a reminder that sometimes the most important part of finishing is finding someone who gets it.

Transcript

TiffianyAnn (00:36)
Hi and welcome to another episode of Dissertating in the Trenches and Behind the Scenes. Doctoral work is often described as a solitary journey or maybe you resonate with the term isolation. But for many learners, isolation is one of the greatest risks. In today's episode, I'm joined with Dr. Noreen. Oh, I should have asked your pronunciation of your last name. How do you say your last name? Hobayan?

Noreen Hobayan (01:04)
I I am.

Go buy in. Perfect, yes.

TiffianyAnn (01:08)
Thank you. And Dr. Carolyn Peters, who formed an unexpected partnership in the final stages of their doctoral journey. What began as study sessions and accountability meetings, they quickly became a lifetime that maybe even on for both of them, this everlasting friendship that made finishing possible. This conversation is about what happens when scholars stop going it alone and how the

connection can sustain persistence when motivation runs thin. So thank you very much ladies for coming into the space. I am super grateful to have you. Can we do just a brief introduction for each of you? We can start with Dr. Peters if you'd like.

Carolyn Peters (01:53)
Sure. My name is Dr. Peters. I just finished my PhD in September and couldn't have done it without Noreen's help. And I'm really excited to share our story because I really couldn't have done it without her.

TiffianyAnn (02:08)
That's awesome. then Dr. Hoban.

Noreen Hobayan (02:10)
I'm I'm Noreen Hobayan, Dr. Hobayan, and I also just finished my doctorate in September one day after Carolyn. So and I feel like, yes, just one day after. So I and I feel like her, just I couldn't have made it without her. She was like a tremendous blessing to my life and I'm so glad that we found each other and were able to work on this together.

TiffianyAnn (02:18)
What?

wow. One day after I bet that there's some things to unpack let's start back where it all began. At what point in the dissertation stage, because it was the dissertation stage, correct? Were you guys connected and found each other? what point in that dissertation stage were you each connected? And how did that how did that come about for you?

Carolyn Peters (02:53)
So the interesting thing is I was ahead of Noreen, but due to job loss and some other obstacles, I was kind of delayed and kind of dragging my feet. So my second chair, second of three, suggested that the people under her get together and create like a steady buddy group.

I had a friend, a cohort partner in Jamaica and we would meet via Zoom and we would just be on Zoom together and we would write. And she finished and she's like, I'll hang out with you. And I'm like, that's so sweet, but you go on with your life. And she's like, I'll cheer you on. And she did. And she kept checking in with me. that's so sweet.

Noreen Hobayan (03:39)
Yes.

Carolyn Peters (03:43)
Well, and I'm like, I'm still on my island. And then my chair changed. there was a Saturday morning that our school, one of the other cohort members had a group of support. And I'm like, I guess I'll jump on. I don't have anything else to do. I popped in and he was having us introduce ourselves and.

type in the chat, where are you from? And I typed where I was from Noreen wrote where she was from. I was like, my gosh, I grew up where you're from. we started chatting in the sidebar and we realized we lived 30 minutes from each other. And we were in the same timing. We were writing our dissertation she was.

just at the very beginning. So she was excited and I was a little discouraged. And I was like, Hey, my, my chair that I had, had the suggestion, you know, are you, are you up for it? Are you into it? And she's like, yeah, why not? And so, that's, that's how it started. We just met, we had, didn't know each other and all of a sudden, you know, we, we live in this part of the country. We're going to

school in this part of the country and we realize we're at the same point in the dissertation process. And throughout a suggestion, I have no idea really who she is, but it's like, hey, you want to do this thing? And she's like, yeah, why not? but that's how it started.

Noreen Hobayan (05:12)
for me when I joined the call, I was just looking for any kind of help at all. I had finished my comps and I was starting the dissertation phase and I was feeling like overwhelmed and lost and I felt like she threw me a life preserver yes, I'll take that. Let's go help me. for anything that could support me because I felt so like lost.

I didn't actually really personally know anybody who had earned a doctorate, I really didn't have anybody to talk to or to lean on or anything. And when she suggested it, I was like, heck yeah, let's do this.

TiffianyAnn (05:42)
That's very interesting. this is really kind of the beginning and you can see the stark difference of where you are at.

Carolyn Peters (05:49)
a chair and we worked together kind of for a year, but I didn't produce anything because I didn't have any expectations. I didn't have any milestones. I didn't have any guidance. it was painful

TiffianyAnn (05:59)
Okay.

Carolyn Peters (06:07)
chronologically, I was farther ahead, you on paper. But really, by the time she and I got together, she would turn in a chapter or whatever, she would get some feedback

then it got to the point where we defended literally a day apart. So we finished exactly the same. it was God's timing. maybe my challenges were put in my way so I could

He could prepare me for the calmness of the storm to help throw the life preserver to say, hey, I got you. And then she was there to grab hold, to further support we could be on this raft together finalize this journey and finally get to land, and stick that stake right in the ground,

and forever be PhD, no one can take that away from us.

TiffianyAnn (07:00)
Dr. Peters.

At this point where you were at, were you feeling some disappointment some discouragement

Carolyn Peters (07:09)
When Noreen and I started together?

TiffianyAnn (07:10)
here's what I love. Even despite that, you had this idea of, I can help you. We can go through this together. I'm not...

I'm not so far behind, I'm not so unknowledgeable that I can't be of service to somebody else. And I Love that.

Carolyn Peters (07:27)
I'm not perfect,

but I've been through a few road trips and I think we can stumble through together. And you might, and you she's, she had a different path and a different chair and you she was quant and I was qual she's got a different career path and she, has a different history. We're the same age, but it's like, hey, you've got different experiences.

And you could teach me things. Let's learn together. let me tell you, there were some key things that she came in at the end that were money. it was kind of like when you rescue an animal, it's like who saves who,

It was pure joy to get to know her through this process, but just to be humble

There's a lot of good resources out there and it's unfortunate. I feel like there's a lot of people out there who could use some support and I'm glad you're out here, sharing stories especially advanced learners and wisdom, people closer to our age or more, who shouldn't give up, who should keep going,

TiffianyAnn (08:38)
absolutely. So many doctoral learners meet peers, but they don't necessarily form the type of partnerships that you guys have. Like, they meet peers, I went to residency and they're passing around my first residency, they're passing around a sheet saying, let's all sign up to be a part of a group. I'm like, I'm out. I'm not signing that. Nope.

So earlier on in my process, I'm like, I'm not into this, this socialization thing. that's really what I saw it as. This transformed over the course of my process, for sure. But I've also had those relationships where I could connect with you and I adore you, but it's not this partnership. you guys...

When I spoke with you first, I sensed this partnership and even in what you've described us so far. Dr. Hobayan, what do you think made this relationship different?

Noreen Hobayan (09:33)
that's really interesting. think, well, first of all, I want to say, I think it was a total God thing that we were brought together. And I do think that we have a great academic partnership, but we also have a really great friendship. And I think like it was just like this perfect combination, which almost like I was thinking about, how did this happen? And I really think like primarily God brought us together. We share the same faith, but we also share so many common connections. It was kind of crazy.

How did this even happen? Like we were in the program for so long together and never even crossed paths. then just at the right moment when we both needed each other, we were brought together and Carolyn reached out and I said, yes. So not only we were in the same program, in the same stage of life, she mentioned that we're the same age, but also when we started to form this partnership, we were both experiencing unemployment.

And so we just had so many things that we could support each other with, which was really helpful. I feel like we clicked. You we had just so many of the same values. her topic was resilient, but I think we're both very resilient women and determined women. we just had so much in common and it made the partnership really effective.

TiffianyAnn (10:42)
Do you think that you could have the same, it may be not the same depth that you guys have because you formed this friendship, but do you think that you could have the same effectiveness from a partnership if you're not making those deep connections like you guys did?

Noreen Hobayan (11:02)
I think like the friendship is a bonus, right? It's a big bonus, but it was more about the accountability at first. So just showing up, you know, taking time to do the work and being committed to yourself, but also to this other person to help. if we didn't have all these like crazy connections and didn't click in the way that we did, having a partnership can really help.

having other people that are in the trenches with you and understanding the process that you're going through, I think made a huge difference. And the friendship piece to me was a blessing and a bonus.

TiffianyAnn (11:35)
Yeah. Dr. Peters, you described having a previous study buddy, And no shame to your previous study buddies, you know, game. But ⁓ were there

Carolyn Peters (11:45)
Mmm.

TiffianyAnn (11:47)
differences that you could see at the I mean, obviously that person finished and they were committed to you to follow you through the end. But do you think that there were some differences in this relationship versus the other? And do you have any? Like, because we're not going to all click the same way. I mean, it is really a bonus that you guys have formed such a friendship, but

Carolyn Peters (11:57)
Absolutely.

TiffianyAnn (12:13)
I don't want to excuse or dismiss the effectiveness of these study buddies. How does somebody create the effectiveness in that relationship?

Carolyn Peters (12:24)
Well, I was going to use my first study buddy as support of saying, you don't have to have the proximity in geographic location. You don't have to have the connection of life. Here, my partner, she's in Jamaica. She has a completely different storyline.

Yes, we were at the same school but we were in the trenches and that's what made it a connection. And we both had the commitment to each other. she'd be driving in her car from home from work and she would hop on the Zoom and say, I'm here for you.

Or she'd be experiencing, weather or a tornado she's like texting me, I'm here for you. I can't get on or, I'm thinking about you. Or she'd send me a message. I'd do the same. Noreen and I with the time being in the same zone, it was a lot easier. sometimes with the time change, I'd mess it up or her work or my work,

Noreen Hobayan (13:24)
You

Carolyn Peters (13:32)
we'd miss each other and it got a little confusing and we could only meet once a week it was a little challenging, but we were there and it was, again, it wasn't, it wasn't a lot, but it was impactful. that impactfulness was memorable and it kept me charged and it kept me motivated. And she was,

TiffianyAnn (13:45)
Hmm.

Carolyn Peters (13:53)
on fire because she's out of the country she pays more and she's like I'm doing this and you're doing this and we're doing this she would kept checking in like wins this do what are you doing how's your you know feedback she's she's still checking in

TiffianyAnn (14:01)
you

Carolyn Peters (14:09)
Even though we may not be having coffee in a couple of weeks it's still a connection and will forever have that connection because it's kind of like military buddies, I guess, you like you were in the trenches, like you fought the battle and maybe you're not going to be talking every week. But if it comes down to the point like you cross paths in a few years, you'll have that

You were there. And that's important. she didn't just drop me as soon as she finished. She's like, hey, I'm done. And she could have, you know, I gave her the out. I'm like, congratulations. That's awesome.

Noreen Hobayan (14:45)
See you later.

Carolyn Peters (14:50)
that was my point. It's like, doesn't have to be, you don't have to be, I don't want to say, you don't have to be friends, but you don't have to be tight. Like it can be as long as you're professional, as long as you're committed, you know, and when you spoke with us earlier, and I don't want to take over the conversation, but it's like, sometimes we would,

TiffianyAnn (15:18)
Take it over.

Carolyn Peters (15:19)
Sometimes we would spend a few minutes at the beginning, just how was your day? How was your week? And that was important too, because that's part of the process. Because if we can't get our minds clear, like how could we work? And sometimes, Norman would be like, I'll stop talking. And then we'd keep going. Or I'll stop talking, and we'll keep going. And then it'd be 30 minutes, and that's okay. And sometimes we'd just like, all right, let's go.

TiffianyAnn (15:25)
you

Yes.

Noreen Hobayan (15:37)
You

TiffianyAnn (15:38)
You

Carolyn Peters (15:45)
and then we'd just start going and then it'd be two hours and we'd have some, we'd get some stuff done. But, you

TiffianyAnn (15:53)
Mm.

Noreen Hobayan (15:55)
I think when we first started talking, I thought that it was more about the academic piece. So this person's going to help me finish my proposal, as if we had to be doing the same task at the same time. But it's more about accountability and the emotional support than it was about specifically what we were working on. I a lot of times, I didn't even know. I know, she's working on chapter one. I'm working on chapter one.

TiffianyAnn (16:11)
Okay.

Noreen Hobayan (16:23)
or she's working on her feedback, I'm still writing chapter two, you know, whatever. Like we weren't necessarily working on the same things, but we were in that same process together and supporting each other. So it was not so much about like, were not, our topics were different, our methodologies were different. At any one point we were at a different pace, page or in our dissertation literally. So it wasn't about like, you know, working on the same thing or like discussing it from an academic perspective, but it was like just a...

TiffianyAnn (16:32)
Mm.

Noreen Hobayan (16:50)
accountability and support became very important, which I didn't really understand that, but I saw it over time.

TiffianyAnn (16:58)
Mm hmm. So what did each of you bring that the other needed? and I guess I want to reframe that question before you met, not necessarily before you met for the first time, but before each meeting, did you prepare yourself? How am I going to show up for Carolyn? How am I going to show up for Noreen? Did you think through that before you connected each time?

Noreen Hobayan (17:24)
I don't know if I would say it in that way, but I think before I got on the call, I would think to myself, I was determined to do something. I'm gonna go on this call, I'm gonna be a support, I'm gonna be, in a way, I don't know if this is weird way to put it, but be an example. I don't wanna let Carolyn down. I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna get stuff done. I always had some small goal.

TiffianyAnn (17:27)
Okay.

⁓

Noreen Hobayan (17:52)
where I'm gonna work on this section or get a paragraph done or something, but just mentally it was like, I'm showing up, I'm gonna be there and I'm gonna get something done because I don't wanna let her down, if that makes any sense. So just having that other person that is showing up consistently like she was for me, I wanted to be the same for her.

TiffianyAnn (17:52)
I'm gonna...

And what

Carolyn Peters (18:11)
Some days were so tough

mentally, I just got on and answered email. some days, you know, work on a full-time job, you know, thankfully I was blessed with a full-time job during this process. And, you know, it's like, you can't let the other person down. Yes, you wanna keep working. And yes, I tell, and I would tell my younger self, keep writing every single day, but sometimes.

You just can't, you you're at a point where you're waiting for some feedback. You will vomit if you read those words one more time. It's like you feel like you've memorized it and, you know, but I want to be here. And, you know, sometimes it's like, gotta, I gotta get something to eat and like, I'll be back in 10 minutes or whatever. It's like, I just, I need to be on the screen. Like, I just need to be here for you and I'm going to be here for you.

and I may not be able to like high functioning, be able to cognitively write something. So I'm gonna answer some emails and I'm just gonna be here. sometimes it would be like, I'd need to go to bed and I'd be really tired and I'll just be here. But that was the part, it was showing up. But it was also accountability. I wanna be able to...

TiffianyAnn (19:07)
Hmm.

Carolyn Peters (19:32)
like produce something, I want to be able like, if we, you know, like, hey, what'd you work on? Hey, what'd you do? It's kind of like showing up to music teacher, like, hey, did you practice? I'll be able to tell, you know, so it wasn't really like we were, you know, checking each other's, you know, like homework or anything, but because you know how the writing process is, you could sit there for two hours and write two sentences, or you could jam on it and do a couple pages. So.

TiffianyAnn (19:55)
great.

Carolyn Peters (19:59)
Some of it was just reading some literature. Some of it was just doing some APA. Some of it was, you know, it just really depended on where you were in the process. But at the bottom line, it was literally showing up, being on the screen. And, you know, like she'd be in the airport. I'd be on a road trip. She'd be in a hotel room after a meeting. I'd be in my office at work. You it was just like, hey, what, you

TiffianyAnn (20:11)
Hmm.

Carolyn Peters (20:22)
few minutes before we were done, all right, what's your schedule this week? And we get on the calendar and we'd really try to do like two or three times a week as many times as we could, we would really try to see each other as many times as possible. Because we first started, we first started like, let's go to the library. And then it's like, well, that's good, because you're sitting there and you're doing it, but it's like, then you can't talk. Like we'd get a room and not that it became really social.

Noreen Hobayan (20:47)
You

Carolyn Peters (20:50)
But it's like, I just feel more comfortable working in my own space and life happens, right? And she's got a family and I got dogs. so it's like, it just worked out and Zoom is so much, I mean, it just became a really great thing. I really, I don't know. I think I'd still be working on it if I did it.

Noreen Hobayan (21:15)
I do have to comment when we first met in person, Carolyn, like that was like the icing on the cake for me. We went to like a local library together. And so you can't tell because we're on Zoom, but we're both pretty tall women. And so she's actually taller than me and I don't really often come across women that are that much taller than me anyway. And we almost had the same clothes on. Like your shirt was like extremely similar to mine. And I was like, this is my person here. This is awesome.

TiffianyAnn (21:15)
I think that's really...

Noreen Hobayan (21:43)
you

TiffianyAnn (21:44)
Oh, that's funny. I find it really comical, actually, that, you know, sometimes people like when they're choosing members of their committee, if they get to choose somebody, they're like, Oh, I want somebody who's so close to me, which I'm not dismissing that there's some value in that but

It takes time. you guys described for us just the value of this, even this internet connectivity, That we have and how much support can be thrown out there in the internet world. I find it's our criteria sometimes.

I think limits us to what we can find as support, If we start making these boundaries But if we stop and say, okay, what do I really need? I really need support. And out of desperation, that's where I would be, out of desperation.

I don't care who wants to sign up first.

Noreen Hobayan (22:50)
I think sometimes you do put these criteria out there and then the bar is too high. we've only been in person, half a dozen times. we went out to tea and lunch and stuff like that. But if you are trying to limit yourself, where it has to be somebody in my program, the same methodology that is local, you'll really, really, really limit yourself.

We're talking about a lot of things that we had in common, but we also had a lot of differences, but we're still able to support each other. And using the technology, like meeting over Zoom is great because it really lowers the bar. I don't even necessarily have to get out of my pajamas

Carolyn Peters (23:24)
And to be honest, ⁓

Noreen Hobayan (23:23)
so proud of

Carolyn Peters (23:27)
we would have done this wherever we were in the country. It's just where we were located geographically that started the conversation. just made it more comfortable to get the ball rolling. The fact that she was open to the study buddy, because I reached out to a couple other people in the cohort and they're like,

That sounds interesting. And then, you know, it was like, mm, yeah. So, you know, it just really depends. all the other things came after. So it wasn't, you know, us getting to know and the things we had in common weren't the criteria, Like Noreen said, those were the icing, the things that made it so much better.

It's really this virtual capability of sharing a space, of supporting each other, and knowing that you're not alone. And especially trying to do academics online and not having a structure to go to.

I don't know how people aren't doing They must have some serious motivators when you don't have other people around you who don't know, I mean, they think they know, but if they haven't done it, they don't know.

Noreen Hobayan (24:51)
being with you're getting the degree online, it can be really isolating because you're the you're the only one doing it. You're the only one that you know. And having somebody who understands it makes a big difference. I can talk to my family. I can talk to my coworkers. I can talk to, whoever. But they if they haven't been through a doctoral journey themselves, they don't, 100 percent get it or maybe you feel like they don't get it. And I think a lot of it's kind of disappointing. I don't know the right word is, but

I'm aware that a lot of our colleagues in our cohort at our school are not doing the same thing. So for example, that community group that we first joined, it never took off. But it can be so helpful and so powerful, people, they're not grasping onto it. And I think sometimes you think of it as extra. that optional call, but not realizing how much it has to offer you.

I didn't either, by some miracle of God, we connected and over time I realized, my gosh, what would I do without this? But I think so many students feel like it's extra, like I have to get on a call with another person, I have to join this community call. But it's really, I almost feel like you don't have the time not to, it made such a difference for me. I really think that students should make more time to try to form that community or be part of a community and form these kind of

Carolyn Peters (26:06)
They could

Noreen Hobayan (26:10)
like partnerships with other students.

TiffianyAnn (26:13)
It's an investment.

Carolyn Peters (26:13)
It could be that

their expectations are completely, you know, they don't know the expectations, they don't know how to articulate the expectations. because they don't know, they don't move forward, they expect that they're going to get on a call and it's just going to be a social hour and they're not going to get anything done or it's just going to be an hour of, you know, complaining or

people talking about what they're doing as opposed to just getting in. Like, hey, who just wants to get online and work? two, three people or whoever. I mean, there are groups that do that

TiffianyAnn (26:50)
would you describe yourself as extroverted or introverted?

Carolyn Peters (26:54)
I'm an introvert, 100%. But I'm on the line. I can absolutely flip the switch, but it just takes me longer to recover because my profession, I deal with a lot of people and I communicate with a lot of people on a daily basis. So I prefer to have a lot of downtime. So I know my limit and I like to recover.

Noreen Hobayan (26:57)
Me too.

TiffianyAnn (26:59)
Okay.

Carolyn Peters (27:19)
I know my limits.

Noreen Hobayan (27:23)
I'd say I'm an introvert too. I have this this phrase that I use like when I'm around people a lot I get people doubt

So if I'm in a crowd or I'm having to interact with a lot of people, I'm exhausted. I love people. Don't get me wrong, but I get really exhausted. But it's so much easier for me in a one-on-one to be able to get together and meet with Carolyn versus being on a call where there's a lot of people. But I'm 100 % an introvert. I like what Carolyn said. I need time to recover after I spend a lot of time with people.

TiffianyAnn (27:41)
Mm. Yeah.

I call it. I've been peopling today. that's where I think when I was originally proposed the opportunity to join such group, I was like, no, too much too much.

But I had never considered even the smaller group, Just a partnership of one person to one person, you guys have done a great job explaining what the situation was and how you supported, can you give me a description of what shifted when you started to meet?

Carolyn Peters (28:15)
Yeah.

TiffianyAnn (28:27)
consistently. How did you recognize that shift?

Noreen Hobayan (28:30)
for me, I was trying to figure out what am I supposed to be doing? Carolyn saying, like, you know, she was still working on her proposal when we started this, partnership. I was starting my proposal, but she was still always like a tiny bit ahead of me, or maybe a lot ahead of me at some point. she was helping me kind of like see through the dark.

it helped me see. Like I felt like the fog was clearing. The longer that we were meeting together, I was like, oh, okay, I see where I'm going. I know what I'm supposed to be doing. And I felt like as time went on, I was getting more confidence that I could do it. I see what this is. I can do this. I can keep going. it also helped me, I don't know if you would call it a shift, but.

Sometimes I would see her go through a challenge just ahead of me and see how she navigated that challenge, if you want to use that word. And then I was able to use some of those same strategies for myself. I think I saw a shift where it was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know where I'm going. And then it started to clear and then get more confidence that I could actually do this. Like, this is happening. I am doing this. We're going to do this. So like over time, the...

language that I'm using the way I'm talking to myself is changing. have it for you Carolyn.

Carolyn Peters (29:46)
Well, it's interesting because then as you navigate it, I had the challenge and I held the lamp, got her through the fog. She navigated a little bit easier and then I gained a little bit of momentum from her she had a chair that was very motivated and would

spend some time and I gleaned some information and then she would kind of give me some feedback, what she was doing. it was kind of a relay race in that kind of those long, long, long relay races, not just a one time around the track. We're talking mountainous, we're talking get in the van, hand the baton, get in and we're doing shuttles here.

I think my momentum would shift a little bit and, definitely picked it up and was able to, make some big chunks of head wave. when, when she started seeing the clearing and making some big jumps, that really helped me.

one, I was like, okay, I can't have two people finish that I was working with. So they're not ego, but come on now, I gotta, get off, dragging your feet, untie the weights off your feet, get going girl.

it was really listening and not just, trying to learn and accept the things that we could share, from each other's journey.

Noreen Hobayan (31:19)
I felt really happy when I had some insight and it helped Carolyn. I was like, yay, I did something to help her. I'm trying to think of like an example, like the formatting stuff in Word. in quality, so I'm using Word all the time. I know how to do the references, the table condes, all the

all that kind of stuff, it's second nature. she was talking about how she was struggling with the formatting and oh, let me show you, I was so happy that it's like, oh, I can give back a little bit, and help her move a little bit on her journey too.

Carolyn Peters (31:47)
simple, but there was like a resource, know, like ExciteWorks or, some of these things that you would think that we would, have learned early on I'm sure every single doctoral journey has been frustrating and frustrating in a lot of different areas. And there's no manual.

I know there's a lot of people that have written books, how to finish your dissertation in day and all that sort of stuff. But, everybody's at a different stage in their life. There's no one way. But, if you can find somebody and if you can humble yourself, it's a lot less painful.

Noreen Hobayan (32:12)
Ha!

Carolyn Peters (32:25)
Yeah, there were tremendous things I was happy dancing quite a few times.

TiffianyAnn (32:29)
Do you think that the term accountability partners or study buddies do you think the accountability piece could scare people away?

Carolyn Peters (32:39)
I think so if people attach tasks to it. I think if people are looking at like, I've got to have chapter one done, or I've got to have two pages done, or I've got to have, the accountability that we held for each other was just being there. So that's why the study buddy, we're just being buddies, we're just being study time.

TiffianyAnn (32:44)
Okay.

Carolyn Peters (33:04)
It wasn't the expert. Or maybe, I don't know, maybe you come up with a different word, it's just because accountability, it's like we never said what are you going to work on? But it wasn't like, well, you didn't do this or, you know, it wasn't like, what are your three goals for the week? And, know, there's a lot of people that do that and they're very successful at it. there's person that

Noreen Hobayan (33:04)
You have a-

Carolyn Peters (33:28)
meets every morning for five minutes with a group and they do this and they love it. It's great. But It's like, no, let's just be accountable to each other. Let's it wasn't forced. It wasn't. And it was life happens OK, great. When can you go again? OK.

There was no animosity. There was no, you're letting me down. it was we're grownups. We're in this. We got this.

Noreen Hobayan (33:54)
It's almost like a soft accountability, if you will. It's more of like a commitment, I would say, like a commitment to ourselves and to each other that up. But I agree with what Carolyn was saying. It's not like, oh, Carolyn, you didn't finish chapter one, what's going on here? It was not like that at all. was more like we just kept showing up for each other and supporting each other. So it's in a sense, but not kind of like a strict accountability like you might think of in your...

in your classes where you have timelines and handing things in and things

TiffianyAnn (34:26)
And I would say if you find yourself in some kind of relationship partnership where you're not aligned in that way, you need to exit and find your partner, It's not good for either one of you to stay in that. If one is like, drill sergeant, we got to get this done. And if you didn't meet the agenda, then, five minute timeout.

if both people work that way, that's great.

Carolyn Peters (34:52)
Yeah. But you know, a lot of it

was selfish, I knew I needed her and it helped me but it didn't feel selfish. It wasn't I'm see what I can get out of Noreen tonight. But, now that I think about it, it's like I seriously.

It was a godsend. The timing was right. It was great. I hear Dr. Peters. I don't believe it. I can't believe it's happened. Sometimes at night, I'm like, why am I not on my computer writing something? Because for six and a half years...

from start to finish.

Noreen Hobayan (35:28)
I feel the same way. It's like, do I do with myself now? You know, like I close the computer for work and it's like, do I open the other computer? It's like, no, what can Go see a movie.

Carolyn Peters (35:37)
I canceled my cable and I don't even know what remote control works my TV now

Noreen Hobayan (35:43)
Hahaha!

TiffianyAnn (35:45)
if you you feel comfortable, maybe each of you share a moment where one one of you was burning out or walk ready to walk away and the other one stepped in.

Noreen Hobayan (35:56)
Who goes first? Well, I don't know that I ever felt burned out, but I experienced extreme frustration, when I got my feedback after my proposal from the AQR review. 97, so literally the feedback, the volume of feedback was longer than my proposal was.

Carolyn Peters (36:09)
The 97 pages.

Noreen Hobayan (36:18)
It was like crazy. Now, of course, Carolyn got hers before me. It wasn't nearly as extensive, maybe she's a better writer than I am.

Carolyn Peters (36:25)
Well, didn't,

to be honest, didn't count the pages. She counted the pages. I'm like, 97 pages? What is that? I went back and counted. It was a lot, Well, but.

Noreen Hobayan (36:29)
So

That's how long it was.

I

can see how far I've grown because I was humiliated even just to admit that my feedback was that long and here I am publicly saying I got 97 pages worth of feedback. it was, I felt like I could a lot of spaces. Big text, very big text, big font.

Carolyn Peters (36:49)
of spaces. There were a lot of spaces.

Noreen Hobayan (36:54)
But it was overwhelming. I feel like if I didn't have Carolyn, I would just be like thinking to myself, I don't have it what it takes. I can't do this. can't like this. Like it was longer than longer than my proposal. she had been through it already, not nearly as bad. but she just cranked through it. And she responded to all the feedback and handed it back in. And I was like, okay, she did it.

I can do the same thing. And I just crunched down and started just hammering through it. It took me, I think it took me like three weeks to respond to all that. And I was working every single day. Like it was really like an intense process because we didn't mention this yet, but our school doubles the tuition after you have a certain number of credits in the dissertation process. So the clock was ticking in a lot of different ways. One, you know, to get it done under the time constraint, but also because we didn't want to pay.

another semester and double the tuition. So I knuckled down, crunched down, really, really focused in. was working on it every single night and I handed it back in after three weeks and it, ultimately got accepted, obviously, because I'm standing here with the DR in front of my name. But it was a really, really, really tough, really, really tough experience. And I feel like if I didn't have Carolyn's support, it might have been the end for me.

TiffianyAnn (38:07)
How about you, Dr. Peters? What was your experience?

Carolyn Peters (38:12)
Well, I had many, many, but I would say it was probably six weeks before the end that I was ready to call it. But I couldn't, obviously. again, we had been given an extension and my my third

committee member had just changed again.

and the committee member came through and read it, sorry, and changed and decimated. And it was like, I'm having master's thesis nightmares again, because I had a similar experience with my a committee member for my master's. And I was like, I, I,

TiffianyAnn (38:41)
Mm.

Carolyn Peters (38:58)
I don't know what I'm doing and I was... Yeah, it was... But, yeah, again, there were so many times, so many times, so many times. I'm like, just, can't do this. So, if it wasn't for my faith, if it wasn't for Noreen, if it wasn't for... I mean, I just think it's those two things. Like, if it wasn't for just the...

the release of like, God, you've got this, I can't do this. It's like that was with my job loss and paying for school and trying to get this done. then going through three chairs and then weeks before I'm supposed to defend, I get all these changes and I'm like, what?

and then I'm not getting any help and I'm like, I don't even know what I'm supposed to do. And, you know, it's like, what am I doing? My life raft rope is getting longer I'm still in it. It's kind of deflating, but the rope, somebody put an extension on the rope. Like the rope is getting farther from land or the ship.

That last little bit just got way, way far, way far. And I just remembered, know, just, storm, ooh, that storm. So I just kind of rode it out and just hung with Noreen and just, kept just talking and being there and a lot of prayer, lot of.

just do what you can do. Like if I gotta go another semester, I mean, I was six and a half years and you only got seven and I'm like, I can only do what I can do. So Lord's not gonna take me this far and then drop me. And if he does, there is a reason. So, okay, here we go.

like I said, countless times, but the most recent one was right up at the end. Right up at the end. Yeah.

TiffianyAnn (41:16)
What were you able to say to each other that felt hard to say anywhere else?

Noreen Hobayan (41:20)
That's a great question, because I feel like somehow, over time, I could say anything to Carolyn. We shared so much, not just about venting about what's happening in school, but in our personal life. I think that is a huge gift to me, that she's just a safe place for me to be able to talk about things. But it was important to have

that emotional support. we were venting about stuff, but we were also regrouping and moving forward. I want to say we didn't allow each other to wallow in it, I don't know that either one of us are really wallowers. it was important to talk about the things that are frustrating, but at the same time, regroup and refocus. And I think if I didn't have

Carolyn Peters (41:44)
Mmm.

Mmm. Yeah.

Noreen Hobayan (42:03)
you know, the safe place in Carolyn to be able to talk about things, it would be really hard to do that regrouping and refocusing on my own.

Carolyn Peters (42:10)
Yeah, because some people will let you express and they're like, yeah, that's horrible. And then they, feed into it where we're like, that sucks But all right, so now what do we do? Okay, well, pull the bootstrauts up and let's lean forward into the wind because we can't do anything else. And this is what we got to do. there were some times where it's like, all right, we got to suck it up.

Noreen Hobayan (42:11)
Thank

Carolyn Peters (42:33)
because no one's going to suck it up for us, because no one's going to write the paper for us. Nobody is going to do this for us, we got to do it ourselves. And we're not getting some support. And okay, we're adults. We've navigated a few decades on our own. So let's figure this out. So we did. And there you go.

Noreen Hobayan (42:33)
you

Carolyn Peters (43:00)
But that was very few and far between. going to the same school, we experienced similar, frustrations, some leadership changes and they made some good changes. But, you know, when there's changes, they often ripple down to the students and, we rolled with it.

Noreen Hobayan (43:15)
Yes. Like they changed the, I don't know if you call it like the outline and the rubric for the dissertation while we're in the middle of the process. And you're like, I just finished that. maybe my younger self would have tried to push against it and be like, oh, you can't make me do this. But now it's I just have to suck it up and do it. That's a new rubric, follow it, get it done.

Carolyn Peters (43:16)
We were all putting it together.

They changed.

TiffianyAnn (43:29)
you

Noreen Hobayan (43:41)
You know?

Carolyn Peters (43:42)
Yeah.

TiffianyAnn (43:43)
Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Peters (43:43)
I have to tell you if we were Gen Z, I think there would have been a little bit of pushback. I think there would have been a little drama, as long they're following the policy and it's written down, we can't do anything about it. And we've finished.

TiffianyAnn (44:01)
Well, it's nice to hear you guys say that because I know that I've worked for two institutions and now I know of this institution that you attended that makes changes mid process, mid your process, not mid their process. But

Carolyn Peters (43:59)
it is what it is.

Yeah.

TiffianyAnn (44:20)
For those listening, just want to frame it this way for you. Because it is frustrating. I mean, I think I changed templates twice through my process. And so it is frustrating because it's one more thing you have to do. It's just one more thing. And one more thing you have to be careful with and really sharp and keen on those changes because they're changes,

But I do not want to attend an institution that does not respect enhancing the materials, To me, it's important that I'm a part of an institution that finds value in keeping the materials fresh and relevant and also as helpful as they possibly can. Because I know that the institutions that I've...

been a part of, are taking feedback in from students and they're trying to incorporate those as much as possible. I also know leadership who have said, you know, we don't want to make changes every year. So I appreciate

Carolyn Peters (45:24)
There's a balance. I

appreciate that the scholarly commitment has advanced. I would have appreciated if there were expectations that were kept consistent with certain people who entered at certain points in their program.

TiffianyAnn (45:49)
Okay,

that's fair.

Carolyn Peters (45:51)
So,

you know, yeah, because I remember going in as an undergrad, you know, when you entered a program and class requirements change, they would be, oh, well, you entered in this program, you don't have those requirements because this is a program. And so actually, when the changes came about, I was like, oh, well, I entered here. So, and then I'd be like, mm-mm, no, everybody changes. They're like, oh, okay, so now we're changing.

You just had to be mindful and that was a learning process, you had to be, on your toes. when the emails came through and things were changing, you had to make sure that you were changing.

Noreen Hobayan (46:32)
between when we started the program, I started in 2020. Did you start in 2019, Carolyn? 2019? So the change in the program between when we started and now is absolutely head spinning. It's improved dramatically, dramatically under the leadership of a certain.

Carolyn Peters (46:38)
19, yeah.

TiffianyAnn (46:44)
Hmm.

Wow.

Carolyn Peters (46:48)
Yes.

Noreen Hobayan (46:51)
Dr. Carter, And he's just done amazing things for the school, amazing things for the students. But the changes were towards the end there. I thought they were more rapid. Would you say that, Carolyn?

TiffianyAnn (46:52)
you

Carolyn Peters (47:02)
Rapid in that we were close to the end and we were experiencing them, again, had they been done and we were just entering, it wouldn't have, I don't think, felt so traumatic and rapid, So yes, yes, we were getting towards the beach and the wave was like right there as opposed to...

TiffianyAnn (47:08)
Yes. ⁓

Noreen Hobayan (47:07)
That's it.

TiffianyAnn (47:18)
Tsunami of changes. Yeah.

Noreen Hobayan (47:21)
Yes.

TiffianyAnn (47:27)
Hahaha! ⁓

Carolyn Peters (47:30)
You know, up top, but the students that are coming behind us, they're entering a really high quality program. Ours got better. But with the process comes learning. And, we learned, we got better. A lot of it came from self-reflection and self-

educating, but that's okay because I think a lot of that sticks better, potentially. And again, everybody's got their own story.

TiffianyAnn (47:58)
Yeah. you both have said it, I couldn't have finished without the other. Could you give me one specific word, maybe a short phrase of what would have been missing?

Noreen Hobayan (48:12)
You're making me think hard here.

TiffianyAnn (48:13)
I mean, it's only been four months since you finished we got to engage the brain.

Noreen Hobayan (48:15)
Thank

I have to condense it down. guess this is like synthesizing and summarizing, It's the PhD way.

TiffianyAnn (48:21)
you

Just kidding.

Carolyn Peters (48:26)
Yeah.

Well, I think,

you could legalize it in saying, literally with, our meeting and our accountability and stuff. But I think a lot of it comes down to the joy of sharing the experience of the trauma. If that's a thing of joy and trauma, joy in the suffering, joy in the...

TiffianyAnn (48:42)
you

Carolyn Peters (48:48)
It's kind of like somebody experiencing their first marathon or their first child or their first, painful experience, this is a big deal. And yeah, you've got family and all that, but, to ride that out with somebody who's really knows at a deep,

feeling of what you've experienced and we've got to know each other in the last year, what we've experienced. finishing, it's been nice to finish with somebody who's been alongside you that last. And she may feel differently, she's got a husband that might be that for her, but she was that person for me to...

to have somebody to feel that joy of being in the trenches.

TiffianyAnn (49:31)
Mmm.

Noreen Hobayan (49:31)
Yeah, I

agree 100%. Even though I have, family around me and coworkers and stuff, they don't understand the way Carolyn does what I was doing and what I've been through, in terms of the doctoral learning journey. so I feel like when you said that I was thinking, what's the opposite of isolation? So like, this partnership with Carolyn has helped me feel like I'm seen, heard, and most importantly, understood. even though her

TiffianyAnn (49:47)
Thank

Noreen Hobayan (49:55)
methodology was different, her study was about something completely different, she understood the process that I was going through. And so when I get on the phone and I'm talking about, like I'm going through this, I know she understands. And I think that was really meaningful to me to have somebody who got it, who got what I was struggling with. And I could explain it all day long to my family, but they've never earned a doctorate. And so they don't really understand. They can see me and they can hear me.

TiffianyAnn (50:03)
Mm.

Noreen Hobayan (50:24)
But I think what Carolyn really brought to me was like understanding. So I felt like somebody got it and somebody was there with me.

TiffianyAnn (50:33)
I love that. What stands out for me when I hear your story is this level of trust,

you extended trust immediately to each other, but then you extended it consistently. And I appreciate the fact that you had these, these commonalities that helped you resurface that trust and reinvest that trust into each other. it's that kind of trust that sometimes we have to just extend it first.

it's that level of trust that allows for the honesty and the steadiness and persistence to take root. Dr. Hobayan and Dr. Peters, you guys reminded us that the community doesn't have to be formal or perfect to be powerful. Sometimes it's just, it has to be real.

I want to thank you both for being here, for sharing your story. And for those who are listening, please consider where connection might already be within reach. you don't have to do this alone. So keep writing, keep dissertating, and we're here for you in a couple of weeks with the next episode.

Thank you.